UI for Mute/Overdub CUE

Just drafted out an idea for mute/overdub CUE. The new "CUE" button is located between the mute and overdub buttons. Turning it on will enable CUE for both mute and overdub. It will be independent of the global CUE option switch.

Any thoughts?

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Comments

  • Well if CUE master is disabled and you activate any other cue then activate CUE master?
    Anyways all these hidden buttons could midi bindable, please? :}
  • edited January 25
    I was thinking it would be independent from the CUE master. So record and mute follow the new CUE button but not the master CUE. Maybe that is too confusing?

    One alternative is to have an option in the settings to turn on CUE for overdub and mute.

    Another is to simply have mute and overdub to follow the master CUE button. This of course would change the default behaviour of GTL.

    MIDI wise there will be separate bindings for "mute" and "CUE mute". I'm working on that now. :)
  • I am a big fan of default options in settings. CUE option for Groups. CUE option for overdub and mute Loops.
  • edited January 27
    I am a big fan of default options in settings. CUE option for Groups. CUE option for overdub and mute Loops.
    I think I agree, an option in the settings would be less confusing as well. Something like 'CUE mute' and 'CUE overdub'. The question is now, would these new CUE functions follow the behaviour of the main CUE button in the transport view or be completely independent? Any ideas?
  • Jack;353" said:

    I think I agree, an option in the settings would be less confusing as well. Something like 'CUE mute' and 'CUE overdub'. The question is now, would these new CUE functions follow the behaviour of the main CUE button in the transport view or be completely independent? Any ideas?
    Hmm tricky - it would be good to set CUE options for group playback, Mute and Overdub - but I wonder what the current CUE button would do? Would it then be redundant? Would it apply to all tracks or to just the selected loop or group? What would it affect? Only the Mute Cue, only Overdub Cue.. or both?

    How about this?
    If the existing CUE was replaced with two cue buttons:
    a "Play/Mute" cue button and a "Rec/Overdub" cue button. (with MIDI binding please :smile: )
    These buttons would apply to the selected group (or loop) and would change to reflect the state of the current group/loop as you select different ones. The Settings menu would hold defaults for Group CUE, Loop Mute CUE and Loop Overdub CUE.

  • edited January 28

    Hmm tricky - it would be good to set CUE options for group playback, Mute and Overdub - but I wonder what the current CUE button would do? Would it then be redundant? Would it apply to all tracks or to just the selected loop or group? What would it affect? Only the Mute Cue, only Overdub Cue.. or both?

    How about this?
    If the existing CUE was replaced with two cue buttons:
    a "Play/Mute" cue button and a "Rec/Overdub" cue button. (with MIDI binding please :smile: )
    These buttons would apply to the selected group (or loop) and would change to reflect the state of the current group/loop as you select different ones. The Settings menu would hold defaults for Group CUE, Loop Mute CUE and Loop Overdub CUE.

    @ricksteruk, thanks for your input. Yes it could get messy not knowing what exactly the main CUE button does.

    What you've suggested sounds like a good idea although It would mean changing the UI and default behaviour of GTL somewhat which is something I'd like to avoid if possible.

    I'm now thinking that a couple of simple options for mute and overdub in the settings would be best. These would set wether mute/overdub would follow or ignore the main CUE button. Things can get more complicated in the MIDI bindings to allow for more advanced options.
  • Jack;353" said:

    I think I agree, an option in the settings would be less confusing as well. Something like 'CUE mute' and 'CUE overdub'. The question is now, would these new CUE functions follow the behaviour of the main CUE button in the transport view or be completely independent? Any ideas?
    It would be interesting to know how many users use that Cue button in the transport. I don't see the need for it with my use case and it's tough for me to imagine someone going back/forth regularly. (Would love to see someone using it to learn more.) To me, the Cue behavior is something expect to be global and sit in a settings panel.


  • It would be interesting to know how many users use that Cue button in the transport. I don't see the need for it with my use case and it's tough for me to imagine someone going back/forth regularly. (Would love to see someone using it to learn more.) To me, the Cue behavior is something expect to be global and sit in a settings panel.
    I know what you mean here as once you have a work flow you're unlikely to want to change it. Having said this I can think of a couple of situations where having quick access to the CUE button is useful.

    1. Turning off CUE to record the first loop, thus setting the tempo manually with a stamp in and out. Then turning CUE back on to resume a more hands/foot free approach.

    2. During a performance, you may decided to instantly switch to another group rather than waiting for the CUE to come round.
  • edited January 29
    I think we've pretty much ruled out this extra CUE button thing. Thanks everyone for chipping in!

    To avoid changing the UI too much, i think the best approach now is to add some extra options in the settings to decided which functions will follow the main CUE button.
  • I like it, Jack. Looking forward to seeing how it turns out.
  • edited January 29
    Yes I've come across a couple of situations where I've wanted to turn CUE off -
    One was when doing a live looping version of one of my wife's songs with her - the Chorus section was effectively a 4 bar chord progression repeated several times, but when it went back to the verse it misses out bars 3&4 - so the best thing to do was to turn off CUEat that point so we could go directly back to the Verse when needed. (The other option would have been to loop the entire Chorus - which was not ideal as some of the Choruses are longer than others!)
  • Just wondering how you guys would expect overdub CUE to behave? Specifically i'd like to know if, after overdub has CUE'd in, should it stop recording automatically after one cycle of the loop or rather continue recording indefinitely?

    @dubbylabby, @lukesleepwalker, @nonchai, @ricksteruk any thoughts?
  • edited February 5
    Hmm.. I think the best idea would be that the overdubbing would stop after the number of repetitions that you've set at the top left of the screen with the DIVIDE and X buttons - so that if you have selected a 2 bar loop, and if you select "X4" with the X button then it would overdub on the loop 4 times (8 bars music in total) and then stop overdubbing. (EDIT - or perhaps it should work so that X4 meant that it would overdub for 4 bars.. i.e. twice through the loop?? to maintain the normal way of using that function - I think I like my first idea better though :smile: )

    When you're overdubbing you quite often want to do things like quickly build a lot of harmonies up over a simple short loop - it would be annoying if it stopped overdubbing after 2 bars
  • Jack;397" said:
    Just wondering how you guys would expect overdub CUE to behave? Specifically i'd like to know if, after overdub has CUE'd in, should it stop recording automatically after one cycle of the loop or rather continue recording indefinitely?

    @dubbylabby, @lukesleepwalker, @nonchai, @ricksteruk any thoughts?
    I like Cue to be consistent in live situations because I don't want to think about it or fuss with button controls. So it should simply record one cycle and be done. If I want another overdub just hit the cue controller again. Playing live is all about keeping it simple to me. Interested to hear how others react.
  • Simple is best.

    I just don't care about complexity since I will keep myself being simple. Most of my focus goes towards the song structure has built in. For me recording in live situation will be one song to show crowd but I want the song structure to jam over more than be worried how behave the overdubbing or cue mute etc.
    All these messing is only for home in my case, since I don't want to take risks in the live situation but... I go for looping tools to keep the "improvisation" factor with other musicians and specific looping gigs where then syncro isn't so relevant (and go bizarre).

    So I trust on you guys to advice the most useful not so risky choice but I will be ok with bizarre workflow since the song structure is why I left loopy (no multiple mute/play with one midi command) and not sure about Loopy Masterpiece release sometime (I found Loopy developer a amazing coder but ultraperfeccionist ranting over AUM code mistakes but keeping Masterpiece as Vaporware... very dissapointed) so I keep my support for GTL and AUM ftw. :V

    I'm getting old.
  • Thanks guys, it's invaluable beeing able to hear your opinions. All points made are valid but do conflict somewhat. Maybe there should be two options for overdub CUE then to suit all needs. One for overdub CUE in and another for CUE out.
  • edited February 5
    Jack;402" said:
    Thanks guys, it's invaluable beeing able to hear your opinions. All points made are valid but do conflict somewhat. Maybe there should be two options for overdub CUE then to suit all needs. One for overdub CUE in and another for CUE out.
    The question to ask is: is it more likely to overdub one time or many times in a row? My guess is that it's the former--and I like to hear what I've done before overdubbing a second part. What if I screwed up the first overdub and I'm already on to the second? To me, Cue out would be a hassle designed for a use case I never use. Just one guys opinion...
  • edited February 5
    I agree simple is best!!!! :smile:
    Whatever options are added behind the scenes the default setting should probably be to just overdub one pass of the loop when CUE is on.

    Personally I like to overdub with no CUE at all and just use my MIDI foot switch to start and stop overdubbing manually. Just having the current CUE button assignable to MIDI would be great for me to enable this without touching the iPad. ***

    I think on the whole my CUE default preferences would be:
    GROUP SWAPPING CUE - ON
    LOOP RECORDING CUE - ON (unless I wanted to use first loop to set a tempo)
    LOOP MUTE/UNMUTE CUE - OFF (normally I'd want to stop/start loops immediately)
    OVERDUB CUE - OFF (manual)

    wonder what other people would do? I guess it might depend if you use a MIDI footswitch or touch iPad screen.

    *** I took part in / helped set up a Looping workshop with SK Shlomo yesterday ( I set up the house PA and brought my CCK and USB digital mixer so we could get a good quality connection from people's iPads into Shlomo's rig. ) ..... anyhow my point is that Shlomo said in his experience using touch screens live does not work for him, as you need to be looking at the audience not staring down at the gear all the time - and so he prefers physical buttons whereby you can feel the button with your fingers and know you'll actually hit it.
    I think GTL's CUE is a great feature as it helps eliminate this uncertainty (especially when running to a metronome or Ableton Link). I did mention GTL to Shlomo and all the people on the workshop ;)
  • I use footswitches and Cue for everything--for exactly the reason Shlomo does. I want to concentrate on the performance and the audience. Cue allows me to pick a "break" in things to do the next thing.
  • edited February 6
    I agree simple is best!!!! :smile:
    Whatever options are added behind the scenes the default setting should probably be to just overdub one pass of the loop when CUE is on.

    Personally I like to overdub with no CUE at all and just use my MIDI foot switch to start and stop overdubbing manually. Just having the current CUE button assignable to MIDI would be great for me to enable this without touching the iPad. ***

    I think on the whole my CUE default preferences would be:
    GROUP SWAPPING CUE - ON
    LOOP RECORDING CUE - ON (unless I wanted to use first loop to set a tempo)
    LOOP MUTE/UNMUTE CUE - OFF (normally I'd want to stop/start loops immediately)
    OVERDUB CUE - OFF (manual)

    wonder what other people would do? I guess it might depend if you use a MIDI footswitch or touch iPad screen.

    *** I took part in / helped set up a Looping workshop with SK Shlomo yesterday ( I set up the house PA and brought my CCK and USB digital mixer so we could get a good quality connection from people's iPads into Shlomo's rig. ) ..... anyhow my point is that Shlomo said in his experience using touch screens live does not work for him, as you need to be looking at the audience not staring down at the gear all the time - and so he prefers physical buttons whereby you can feel the button with your fingers and know you'll actually hit it.
    I think GTL's CUE is a great feature as it helps eliminate this uncertainty (especially when running to a metronome or Ableton Link). I did mention GTL to Shlomo and all the people on the workshop ;)
    Your workshop sounds great, thanks for spreading the word!

    Seems like the CUE setup you described above is exactly the way GTL behaves by default now. Of course i'm not planning to change any default behaviour, just add more options to customise CUE.

    You mentioned turning off CUE in order to set the tempo manually with the first loop. Just thought i'd point out that if you disable the 'Count In' ("1,2,3,4") button, this will become the default behaviour whilst remaining in CUE mode.
  • Will you need beta testers soon, Jack?
  • Will you need beta testers soon, Jack?
    Absolutely, message me your email and i'll add you as a tester when I get a beta build together.
    Cheers.
  • I've jammed on jazz guitar with Schlomo's dad Jeremy Kahn - many times, here and at his place. But have never met Schlomo.
  • Small world isn't it nonchai! This workshop was the first time I've met Schlomo - he's a really nice guy :smile: And yeah.. I did wonder about your jazz influences with your Real Book avatar.
  • I've got a friend coming tomorrow and I'm going to show him GTL and iPad so he can see if he wants to replace his simple Boss pedal. He's a guitarist. One thing I know he does live currently is to create a loop during the middle of a piece... so he just manually starts and stops recording to create the loop/tempo (and hopefully gets it right or it really puts off the rest of the band :wink: )

    So, I've just been having a go with "no click recording" (no Cue) to see how this would work for him. The first loop works just as expected - it's entirely up to the accuracy of your stomps wether the loop sounds any good or not.

    Next... When I try adding the second loop I can press record at pretty much any time and GTL syncs it with the initial loop which is great :smile:

    However - I noticed it does make a difference when you press Rec again to stop recording. If you stop recording after the same length as the initial loop then no problem - they sync up neatly. But if you do a shorter or longer loop it seems that GTL is dividing initial loop into 3 and syncing with these thirds.

    I wonder if there is some preference setting that explains what GTL is doing?? @Jack

    Say for example you have recorded 4 bars as your first loop (probably quite a common occurrence I'd say) - then maybe you want to just add a 1 bar or a 2 bar phrase to it.

    So press record on Bar 1, then press again on Bar 2 and you'd get a 1 bar loop right?
    Nope.. you get a 1 1/3rd bar loop.

    If you press record on Bar 1 then stop on Bar 3 you get a 2 bar loop right??
    Nope.. you get a 2 2/3rds bar loop

    I experimented turning on Cue and found that it also seemed to be relating to the 1/3rds of the initial loop.

    Oh any btw.. Cue was very useful for swapping between verse / chorus sections so it will be great to have that as an option for Group playback and not recording for these kind of "no click track" sessions.
  • And related to this ^ it would be great if by using a Tap Tempo Midi CC we could tell GTL the tempo of the track and the time signature.

    i.e. 4 taps = 4/4, 3 taps = 3/4, 5 taps = 5/4, 6 taps = 6/8 etc...

    (and to be really clever.. if GTL was in free (No Cue) mode - it could still use this Tap info to intelligently split the bars up if you wanted to loop less than the full initial loop)
  • ricksteruk;517" said:
    I've got a friend coming tomorrow and I'm going to show him GTL and iPad so he can see if he wants to replace his simple Boss pedal. He's a guitarist. One thing I know he does live currently is to create a loop during the middle of a piece... so he just manually starts and stops recording to create the loop/tempo (and hopefully gets it right or it really puts off the rest of the band :wink: )

    So, I've just been having a go with "no click recording" (no Cue) to see how this would work for him. The first loop works just as expected - it's entirely up to the accuracy of your stomps wether the loop sounds any good or not.

    Next... When I try adding the second loop I can press record at pretty much any time and GTL syncs it with the initial loop which is great :smile:

    However - I noticed it does make a difference when you press Rec again to stop recording. If you stop recording after the same length as the initial loop then no problem - they sync up neatly. But if you do a shorter or longer loop it seems that GTL is dividing initial loop into 3 and syncing with these thirds.

    I wonder if there is some preference setting that explains what GTL is doing?? @Jack

    Say for example you have recorded 4 bars as your first loop (probably quite a common occurrence I'd say) - then maybe you want to just add a 1 bar or a 2 bar phrase to it.

    So press record on Bar 1, then press again on Bar 2 and you'd get a 1 bar loop right?
    Nope.. you get a 1 1/3rd bar loop.

    If you press record on Bar 1 then stop on Bar 3 you get a 2 bar loop right??
    Nope.. you get a 2 2/3rds bar loop

    I experimented turning on Cue and found that it also seemed to be relating to the 1/3rds of the initial loop.

    Oh any btw.. Cue was very useful for swapping between verse / chorus sections so it will be great to have that as an option for Group playback and not recording for these kind of "no click track" sessions.
    Right i think what is happening here is that GTL is automatically trying to guess how many bars your first loop is. You might find that after recording your first 4 bar loop the the clock duration does not match 1 bar, for example it might loop 3 times round over your 4 bar loop. In this situation, you need to tell GTL how many bars your first loop will be before you record anything. You can do this by tapping the clock - and x buttons, when CUE is turned off, before you start your first loop. You will notice that the default setting is 'Auto', you should be able to set this to '4 bars'.

    Also you can record you first loop 'free time' and remain in CUE mode if you simply just turn off 'Count In' (That's the "1,2,3,4" button). This will only work if you have also disabled Ableton Link. This way you can record the first loop manually and remain in CUE mode for switching between groups.

    Hope this helps.
  • That's great Jack thanks - it seems you did a good job setting up GTL for free time looping then :smile:

    I did notice the "Auto" in the clock display and thought I had tried changing it - but perhaps that was after I'd made an initial loop - I'll have another go :smile:
  • edited April 10
    No problem, I'm pretty sure that is what you need to do but if not then let me know and i'll look into it.

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